Flada Blog

207 responses so far ↓

• 1 Serena // Aug 19, 2007 at 6:34 pm

  I really enjoyed reading this and it was a wonderful addition to the original post.

• 2 Edmund Snyder // Aug 20, 2007 at 5:47 pm

  Serena,

  I’m glad you appreciate my efforts. Thanks.

• 3 obsteve // Aug 22, 2007 at 5:43 am

  Hi Ed

  Re: Anecdotal evidence and majority support for your article.

  You say

  “Since posting, however, I’ve received mountains of anecdotes to support my reasons–and really only one voice of dissent.”

  I think this might be due to your reference audience. I imagine (though please correct me if you know I’m wrong) that the majority of people who come across your homeschooling page do so either through your links to other pages, or through a ‘homeschool’ search, or through (as I did) stumbleupon ‘homeschooling articles’ toolbar.

  Whether your readers are actively searching or idly stumbling, I believe the majority probably don’t need to be convinced of your arguments as they are already, for their own reasons, of your persuasion with regards to state education. Hence the anecdotal evidence being hugely in support of your original 5 reasons.

  It is classic rhetoric to make an ‘appeal to the majority’, but in reality it doesn’t mean a thing. For example; an article arguing against abortion would receive a remarkable majority of approvers and ‘mountains of anecdotes’ supporting its claims if it were posted on a catholic web page, and remarkably little support if it were posted on a professional medical discussion board. Purely on account of reference audience.

  If you posted the same ‘5 reasons’ article on the Times Educational Supplement discussion board, for example (tes.co.uk), where the majority audience consists of professional teachers, you might find a larger number (and a more competent audience) of dissenters. than just myself.

  Steve

• 4 obsteve // Aug 22, 2007 at 6:34 am

  Re: Socialisation

  You say, of state education, that “interactions that take place between a student and anyone of a significant age difference are always ones where the student is a subservient in the power structure. I reject the notion that my children are or should be subservient.”

  I don’t know when the last time was that you were in a school, but you have a mistaken image of what goes on in the classroom.

  A child in State education certainly socialises with children her age- both in “streamed” classes, of roughly the same ability, and in non-streamed classes. She mixes with children of her age from all social strata and cultural diversity in her community. She also socialises with children not of her age; with older and younger children too, in the form of peer mentoring programs, buddy systems, extra-curricular sports, committees, clubs, prefect systems, etc, including children from other schools’ teams, clubs, foreign exchanges etc.

  She also socilises with adults- teachers in the classroom, senior management, auxilliary staff, visiting professionals, etc. There is a wide variety of human interaction at any number of levels in school. I’m not saying there isn’t that opportunity for homeschoolers, only that you are mistaken to think that there is no ‘natural socialisation’ in state school.

  You say the only dialogue between teacher and student is one in which the student is ‘Subservient’. Come on, Ed, you can’t really believe this is true can you?

  In my experience this is a false claim. Firstly, I can’t think of a single teacher; nor senior manager; nor auxilliary staff member; who considers a child ’subservient’. Not one teacher I know asks a child to do things as you suggest, ‘without question’. Secondly, it is not a very sensible interpersonal technique, so why would anyone do it? You get much more effective results when children (and adults) know what they are doing, and why they are doing it. You get even more effective results when children (and adults) choose their course of action. The best learning is structured by the individual by herself, within herself. This is ideally what happens in the classroom, and forms, in my experience, the majority of Student-Teacher dialogue.

  You say ‘“Because I said so,” is a response stemming from laziness or incompetence’. Well I agree, but I have never heard a teacher say that, either as a schoolboy or as a teacher myself. If it was ever said to you I can only assume it was said by teacher, in a hurry, on an off-day. Both you and I and the vast majority of parents and teachers on this planet know that ‘because I said so’ has extremely limited uses within human interaction.

  Ed, I can’t believe you went to a school where all the teachers were uncompetent, stupid and tyrannical; where all the children socialised in a narrow age group; where kids were freely labelled with terms that were ‘virtually non-existant’ outside the school setting. You may have an IQ of 170, but your memory is playing tricks on you!

  Steve

• 5 obsteve // Aug 22, 2007 at 7:00 am

  Re: Things that are taught wrong

  Things that are taught wrong

  You say that “in a public school setting someone else always sets the curriculum whereas at home the parents set it.”

  If a parent wants his children to get qualifications, then he will be teaching them roughly the same things as they would be learning in school (which is the exam course, which makes up the curriculum)

  ‘Almost every textbook available has sections on these topics with opinions stated as facts and every bit of controversy whitewashed out of the text. They simply don’t teach the controversy, instead choosing to present questionable “facts.”

  In History, for the last 20 or so years in the UK, students have been taught historical skills, such as evidencing, sourcing and cross-referencing. History is regarded as a meta-narrative, comprised of thesis and antithesis. Even when I was at school, we studied opposing sources such as Bloody Sunday (Ireland conflict) and The “Enlightenment”. The emphasis has long been on questionning and researching, not on regurgitating ‘facts’.

  Sadly, as a result of this, many students have graduated with a reduced core knowledge, which has been picked up by the right wing press as evidence that we need to return to a ‘knowledge based’ curriculum. Happily, the History teachers I know have an unquenchable thirst for history, and an ability to ignite the same excitement in their students (most of them!). And, believe it or not, they set the curriculum within their school, mostly according to which exam board they wish to follow, but also according to their own individual strengths and areas of expertise.

  You say that “Real history is never dull or boring because it’s filled with three-dimensional humans with all of their strengths and shortcomings”.

  I agree. What on earth makes you think that someone who has a passion for history; who studies to degree level; who takes a diploma in teaching their area of expertise; suddenly becomes, as you suggest, a sad whitewasher of history, telling “a dull, two-dimensional story that bores the hell out of the unfortunate students that have to sit through it”.

  Honestly, try posting that accusation on the Times Education discussion board and see how passionate the history teachers are in responding to it!

  I appreciate you homeschool, and I’m sure you’re great at getting across your passion about history, but do you reall think that someone so passionate about their subject that they decide to teach it, suddenly becomes an incompetent bore once they do, or worse than that, deliberately tells their students lies!?

  Come on Ed, there must be a million better reasons to homeschool than this blatent falshood!

• 6 obsteve // Aug 22, 2007 at 7:12 am

  Re: School murders, rapes and assaults

  Sorry Ed, providing a few articles about murders in school doesn’t wash with me. I won’t bother giving you a similar (somewhat larger) list of home abuse. You will have to provide me with statistical evidence that your child is more in danger of murder, rape and assault in school than out of school, which I don’t think is the case, because (correct me if I’m wrong) I think you are more likely to be raped murdered or assaulted by a family member than at school.

  Yes, there are school shootings, stabbings and the like, and they are horrific and extremely worrying. But statistically your child is still safer in school than on the streets… And if this is the case, then as an argument against sending your child to school, it is also an argument against letting her out to play. Which is IMO silly.

  And, forgive me if I’m wrong, but did you just call me a “nameless, faceless automaton bureaucrat”?

  

  Steve

• 7 obsteve // Aug 22, 2007 at 7:38 am

  Re: Values

  “First, an axiom of morality is that it is not right to steal. Yet public schools couldn’t even exist if the government didn’t first steal assets from citizens to operate the schools.”

  Oh please! Then stop driving on your state funded road and refuse treatment in your state funded hospital, reject protection from your state funded police and community services, then turn down your state funded pension if you think it’s stealing. I’m not disputing your right to call taxation stealing- nobody likes being taxed- but it is extremely far fetched to conclude that this gives a message to children that it’s ok to steal sweeties, for example! Remind me to tell my 96 year old Grandma not to collect her pension because she’s stealing from me!

  You say “peer influences in schools often undermine the teaching of ethics and morality”

  Do you think this is true only of state education and not of homeschooling? Are you ever going to let your little ones out of your sight?

  Do you think all teachers are amoral? Are we all “nameless, faceless automaton bureaucrats”? Once we become teachers do we lose all our personal values, our desire to educate or instill values, or encourage debate? Are we so weak we all become engulfed by the big system and turn into state drones?

  Ed, there are plenty of good reasons to homeschool which do not involve dehumanising or degrading the teacher professionals in ways which simply aren’t true.

  Here’s my 5- You’ll spend valuable time with your kids, you’ll have fun, you will learn along with them, you will have greater control over who they interact with and how, you will have greater freedom over when and where and what to teach.

  That’s just five off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s many more. But I’m still asking you to change your original 5, on the grounds that they are weak and misleading arguments which do not stand up to scrutiny.

  Steve

• 8 Edmund Snyder // Aug 22, 2007 at 11:57 am

  Steve,

  Thanks for all of your replies. Dissent was one of my objectives when I started this website.

  First, most of my anecdotal evidence is from first or second person knowledge. I am a post-secondary instructor and hear a lot of stories from a lot of people.

  That being said, indeed there are more than a few great teachers at public schools. Unfortunately, the best teacher I ever had in high school left the profession for many of the same problems that I’ve cited. He is not alone. I have nothing but respect and admiration for those who persevere.

  I guess we’ll most likely just have to agree to disagree on some topics. However, I’d like to reiterate that you are talking about an entirely different public education system than I am. You refer to the way things are in the UK, which I admittedly know nothing about. I refer to the way things are in the US, which you probably know next to nothing about.

  Are there good schools to be found in the US? Probably, but there’s a better than average chance that the one in “Joe Reader’s” community isn’t one of the few. My daughter attended what was supposed to be one of the better intermediate schools in the state of Illinois and even that school had it’s share of incompetents.

  Finally, just because the government is filled with “nameless, faceless automaton bureaucrats” doesn’t mean that everyone there is in that group. You definitely don’t seem to be a member. I’ll have to take your word that most of the other teachers in the UK are likewise excluded.

  I’ll have to take a bit of time to digest the rest of your comments. I do have a regular job and young children.

• 9 obsteve // Aug 22, 2007 at 6:12 pm

  Many thanks for your response Ed,

  State education in the UK isn’t some modern miracle either, but having worked in the poorest areas of the UK where the kids have some of the lowest life chances, I have only the greatest respect for colleagues who persever in teaching kids a variety of life skills, struggling for the most part against unjustly bad press.

  I hope you can understand how a teacher might get narked reading about her supposed amorality, incompetence and stupidity, when it clearly isn’t the case in her experience. And I can’t imagine that US teachers are for some reason less moral, competent or intelligent than uk teachers.

  I honestly can’t think of a single colleague either now or in the past who has not had passion for his or her subject, and an earnest desire to pass on their knowledge and skills to the students they teach, and I can’t think why this would be any different in the US either.

  And I would put my kneck on the line and state that there are probably no more incompetent teachers than police officers, doctors, nurses, navy instructors or any profession, US or UK.

  Please take as long as you like answering my comments, I would prefer a well considered reply

  Steve

• 10 Serena // Aug 23, 2007 at 11:13 pm

  I wish Obsteve could listen to the remarks that Fawn (our sister for those not in the know), and other parents that I know with school-aged children here in the good ol’ southeatern US make about the teachers that their children have. I seriously can’t believe how stupid some of those teachers are but then again this part of the country is known for some of the worst schools in the country.

  Plus when I think about the friends that I had in college that were studying elementary education, they were some of the stupidest people that I knew and were barely able to keep their heads above water gradewise. Certainly this does not mean that all teachers, or even all elementary education teachers, are idiots but if I had children I wouldn’t want to risk those people being their teachers.

  Thankfully I am not a parent and don’t have to make that kind of decision and I have all my time to myself and whatever pursuits I want for myself.

  Anyway I have to give thanks to Obsteve for his vote of confidence in the educational system of this country when there are so many out there that love to slam everything about the US that they can in anecdotal fashion. Lord knows (pardon the expression) that this country gives them plenty of ammunition.

• 11 Edmund Snyder // Aug 24, 2007 at 11:37 am

  Serena,

  Obsteve has been a great contributor to my website. It would get pretty boring around here if this became a bunch of people who agreed with everything I say. A few pats on the back and high-fives are okay, but the last thing I want is for my blog to become a circle jerk.

  Differences of opinion stimulate thought and help us to reorganize our beliefs so that they are more clear and less inconsistent. Usually they end in a draw with no one’s mind changed, but even in those circumstances they strengthen what each party brings to the table.

• 12 Serena // Aug 24, 2007 at 12:39 pm

  Ed,

  I never said that people should all agree. Where did you get that idea? I even thanked ObSteve for not buying into all the negative anecdotal “proof” that America is all bad.

  In my cummulative notes, I have never even said that I entirely agree with you on homeschooling. In fact, I said that as someone without children I still am not opposed to paying taxes to educate the children. I do wish that they were receiving better public education (at least in this part of the country) but knowing the parents that I know here in SC I am glad that they aren’t home schooling. The one couple that I know here that does homeschool have five children and even the oldest, who is 8, doesn’t know his alphabet yet. It is a family of the blind leading the blind. And whereas I doubt that they are abusing their children or molesting them, their only reason for homeschooling is to keep the children away from outside influences when it comes to their religious beliefs. Which I suppose is their right, but they aren’t doing their children any favors since they aren’t even learning the basics of reading, math or any other subject.

• 13 Edmund Snyder // Aug 24, 2007 at 3:44 pm

  Serena,

  I was agreeing with what you had said. Sorry that I wasn’t clearer.

• 14 Edmund Snyder // Aug 24, 2007 at 3:47 pm

  Serena,

  As far as religious beliefs and homeschooling–that is something on which I should write an entry. It would probably interest people to know that I’m an atheist who thinks that public schools fail in the area of religious teaching. Not that I think they should be teaching religion, but they should certainly teach controversy which they can’t do without teaching about different religions.

  I would also include that morality has little to do with religion–if I ever write such an entry.

  Thanks for your comments.

• 15 Amie // Aug 25, 2007 at 10:13 am

  It is clear to me that OBSteve’s experiences in the UK are drastically different from those of most American students/teachers. As a parent who hasn’t been out of school that long (I’m in my early 20s), there is no way I would ever send my children to public/private school.

  OBSteve seems to think that students in the US are as fortunate as those in the UK. Let me agree with Edmund and tell Steve that he is not correct in his assumption.

  When I was in school, not all that many years ago, I was never given an opportunity to be around kids more than 2 years older than I. Our school ran in 5 different buildings: pre-k through k, 1-3, 4-6, 7-9, and 10-12. When exactly would I have been able to socialize with “peer mentors” or “buddies” with a significant age difference?

  Teachers socializing with students? NEVER. We were lucky if we knew if our own teachers were even parents. Our teachers had no interest in teaching us to interact with adults. We were, indeed, given a “shut up, sit down, and because I said so” attitude day in day out.

  Teachers here are often not even qualified to teach the subjects they are teaching. My Sr. high history teacher had his degree in Biology, but got bored teaching biology. Rather than quitting, the district convinced him to stay on teaching something different. He picked history.

  Even while I was doing a practicum at a local high school (during my brief stint as an ed major), nothing had changed.

  US public schools are not the proponents of research and knowledge like those of the UK (according to OBSteve, of course). I remember getting marked off on a research paper because I came to a conclusion different from my teacher. The subject matter? “Define art”.

  Obviously, not having experienced US public schools, OBSteve can only compare apples to oranges. But please, by all means, compare away. You are welcome to disagree. It keeps life interesting!

• 16 Ute // Aug 26, 2007 at 10:32 pm

  Again, bravo, Ed!

• 17 obsteve // Aug 27, 2007 at 4:09 pm

  Hi Everyone,

  There are many different types of educational establishment in the UK, so up to a point even comparing school to school here might fit the apples/oranges analogy.

  Even within the UK have a wide variety of single sex or mixed schools, increasingly specialising in technology/sport/language/arts etc across the 11-16 year old range and beyond. Some schools are even becoming ‘education villages’ spanning primary to further ed (post 16), as the old segregated ‘lower-middle-higher’ establishments are being phased out. There is a trend towards ‘religious schools’, too, with church financial involvement. Some schools are funded by the state, some have ties with local businesses, some with regional universities. Some schools are funded directly by parents (though by some twist these ‘private schools’ are also known as ‘public schools’. I have taught in ‘traditional’ schools with blazers and school hymns, and in ‘modern’ schools with no bells, no breaktimes and no staffrooms.

  Some schools are classed ‘beacons’ of excellence, and some schools are classed as ‘failing’ or ’sink’ schools (shockingly, according to a recent newspaper headline, 50% of UK schools have been revealed as below the national average standard). It should come as no surprise to find that there is a socio-economic link with the community in which the school operates, and the grades attained by its students.

  It has occurred to me that I have been presuming that there are as many differences within the US education system. I would love to know a little more about it, if you have time, or could direct me to a site.

  But while I can believe there are some significant differences between US and UK schools, I still can’t get to grips with the idea that somehow US teachers are predominantly bad practitioners. Why would that be? Is it money, and qualifications? Incidentally, could anyone tell me how much a classroom teacher earns in the US, and what their qualifications are?

  Steve

• 18 Michelle // Aug 28, 2007 at 10:06 am

  Hi Steve,

  I think the main problem we have with public schools here in the US is that it’s not a nationally run program (no, I’m not advocating that it should be), but rather each state sets it’s own curriculum and then that is further divided into local school districts controlled by locally elected school board members.

  For example, I live in Texas, so I will limit my observations to my state. Texas is divided into 254 counties and each county has a number of school districts (based on population). A quick search resulted in some outdated information which indicated 1,048 separate school districts in 1993. That is probably still an accurate number (accurate enough for my purpose, anyway).

  Now, enter the bureaucracy. We have the federal “no child left behind” program. This is federal money being thrown at states provided students perform at a defined level. Sounds good, in theory. The state quickly devises a plan to test all students to prove they meet or exceed the federal expectation so that the state gets free money. Of course, the state will dole out said free money to various school districts based on their performance. Meet the TAKS (Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills) test. A statewide test given to each student at each grade level to determine school performance (and therefore eligibility for free money). School boards devise their budget, give the marching orders to the school administrators who in turn tell their employees (the teachers) what curriculum they must teach in order to make sure the money makers…er….students perform at the level required to ensure enough free money to keep the school district afloat.

  In short, the emphasis is not on teaching the children, but on generating income. So regardless of how dedicated, talented or competent a teacher may be, he or she is required to teach a set curriculum based on a criteria which has little or no regard for a student actually learning anything.

  The average annual salary for a teacher in Texas is $38,857.00. There are incentives for special ed teachers and longevity pay plus some very good benefits.

  The bottom line, for me personally, is that government run schools do not have the objectives or values that I have.

• 19 Michelle // Aug 28, 2007 at 11:27 am

  Regarding school murders, rapes, etc.:

  While the percentage chance of my child being the victim of a violent crime may be low, it is still higher than the chance of it happening in my home under my care.

  And, what praytell, are acceptable odds? Anything greater than zero is unacceptable to me.

  Regarding values:

  With the centralized funding of public schools (as addressed in my previous post) there is a loss of community based values. The schools are government run institutions and are no longer a reflection of the community (and values) in which they are based. Integrity, rectitude, truthfulness, honor, honesty, reverence, and responsibility (in other words: individuality and character) are frowned upon if not actively discouraged.

  Also, when you have the government funding the school system, you have a political agenda. In the area of values, you have special interest groups lobbying (read throwing gobs of money at) the government to get their agenda included in the curriculum. An example is Massachusettes and the gay rights advocates. I have nothing against gays, but is a public school the appropriate forum and is second grade the appropriate age to teach the normalization of homosexuality? And, as a parent, do I not have the right to determine what explanation and at what age I will give my child about homosexuality?

  This political agenda also leads to the manipulation of the curriculum. In many school history books, the story of Abraham Lincoln has been reduced to a single paragraph. There is no discussion of the social or political controversy of slavery, abolitionism or the civil war. In Texas, they have been busily re-writing Texas history books so as not to offend any Hispanic students. Schools are not allowed to teach creationism, even as an abstract idea, but are required to teach the theory of evolution. There is a lack of balance and objectivity in much of the curriculum, not because the teachers lack the knowledge or the enthusiasm, but because they lack the authority to teach outside the prescribed curriculum.

• 20 obsteve // Aug 28, 2007 at 4:53 pm

  Hi Michelle,

  I won’t enter into an argument with you over your Texas school system, as I know very little about it, but I will say there have been similar complaints levelled against the “No Child Left Behind” initiative in the UK. My own biggest objection with initiatives like these is that I see government officials with their own agendas trying to win public support. The initiative itself has no bearing on my values and objectives, however, which remain firmly focussed on teaching children, as I imagine would the values and objectives of my American colleagues.

  Wen it comes to assertions like “Integrity, rectitude, truthfulness, honor, honesty, reverence, and responsibility (in other words: individuality and character) are frowned upon if not actively discouraged”, you really have to evidence this for me somehow, because I find it very difficult to believe that anyone would denegrate these qualities. Also, could you provide some internet news site which confirms that “In Texas, they have been busily re-writing Texas history books so as not to offend any Hispanic students”. I find this pretty incredible, too.

  I think that politically we may disagree, but personally speaking I think ’sex education’ is an essential part of any child’s education, and that the “normalization of homosexuality”, as you put it, should go hand in hand with the normalisation of heterosexuality (at whatever age before which the children become interested in sex, IMO). In the UK, parents have the right to withdraw their children from Sex or Religious education, on ethical grounds, do you not have the same option in the US?

  Also, I believe creationism has a place on the Religious Ed timetable, along with other religious teachings, but are you really telling me an RE teacher couldn’t teach about it should he so want? Have their been cases where RE teachers have flouted the ban and been punished?

  Ultimately we may differ in our political views, but in school your child is taught by teachers with a wide range of political views, not a mindless faceless beaurocrat regurgitating government spin.

  It would be a sad day if US teachers really did, as you suggest, “lack the authority to teach outside the prescribed curriculum.” It would be a sadder day still if by some mad twist, in that curriculum, “there is no discussion of the social or political controversy of slavery, abolitionism or the civil war.” I would also despise any political system which would allow, as you say is allowed in the states, special interest groups to pay the government to get their agenda included in the curriculum.

  It just sounds too unbelievably bleak to be true.

  Steve

• 21 obsteve // Aug 28, 2007 at 4:55 pm

  LOL, please excuse the spelling in above post

• 22 Michelle // Aug 29, 2007 at 11:24 am

  As far as character aspects being discouraged in the public schools, I should amend my assertion to state that (as far as I know) there is not an official policy of such, but rather it is an unintended consequence of other polices. Many schools have “zero tolerance” policies which have run amok and have served to punish students unreasonably and unfairly. A quick google on keywords zero tolerance public schools will bring up a host of articles detailing some of these incidents. From personal experience, my nephew was suspended for being beaten up by a bully. He didn’t start the fight or even participate in the fight (other than serving as a target), but he was given the exact punishment as the aggressor. What object lesson did my nephew learn? As our schools become more institutionalized, the need to “mass produce” requires administrators to discouraged individuality in the student body. Subject like ethics and morals are generally not on the curriculum, and where they do exist, they are usually for a specific area and, quite often are there due to special interest group pressure. I know that the qualities I listed are intangible, but I still hold that the public schools do not adequately teach the values I do. For example, my 2 year old son can recite the Pledge of Allegience. As policy stands right now, he will never be taught or allowed to recite it at school. Why? Because it contains the words “under God”.

  In my zeal when writing my original post, I made it sound as if the textbook controversy was an ongoing one, and it may still be, but the incident I was referring to is rather dated. However, here is a good article discussing what I was referencing and the inherent problems: http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=14280&pid=941

  And a book concerning the censorship of textbooks:

  The Language Police

  Regarding sex ed: Yes, Massachuettes state law requires parental notification, however, a number of lawsuits have been filed against schools for failure to do so. But more to my point: it is your right as a parent to determine what and when your child will learn about sexuality. There is a difference between education and indoctrination. If there was an objective and balanced program being presented, I would be more likely to consider it. But, unfortunately, the discussion are about advocacy and not about education. http://hennessysview.com/?p=770

  There is no religious education allowed in public schools. Religion may be discussed in social, historical or cultural context only. (Crusaders were Christian, Pilgrims were Puritans, etc.) The uproar over evolution vs creationism is that many curriculums present the theory of evolution without any mention of any alternative theory, including creationism. It is a reflection of the schools, once again, being manipulated by a particular group to teach a specific item. And, yes, if an education were to begin discussing creationism in depth in his classroom without administrative approval, he would be fired and most likely sued along with the school district.

  Given the standardized testing which required to receive “free” money and whose results are now being directly tied to teacher incentives, the main complaint is that teachers are “teaching the test”. They are required to cover specific information in order to ensure that their students pass the assessment test. I didn’t mean to imply that teachers were regurgitating government spin (a la “1984″), but they are required to adhere to a specific curriculum. As for teachers having a “wide range of political views”, that is a highly subjective assumption in the US as many people would argue that the majority of teachers are political liberals. Regardless, what does a teacher’s political view have to do with how and what they teach my child? Liberal, conservative or otherwise, I had better not find you imposing your political beliefs on my child. Teach, objectively and without bias. But in America, that is apparently too much to ask for.

  And to pre-empt any assumptions that may be made about me from my arguments: 1) I am not a homophobe. What consenting adults with one another in private is not my concern. 2) I am not a religious zealot - I’m not even Christian.

• 23 obsteve // Aug 30, 2007 at 3:39 pm

  HI Michelle

  It is astonishing to think that an innocent victim of bullying be given the same punishment as the perpetrator of the attack; I doubt such an injustice would ever occur in any of the schools I have taught in, had the full truth of the situation been known to any teacher. Most of us would chase after the bus if the conductor had undercharged us. I have worked in a ‘zero tolerance’ school though, which excluded 117 students by the end of its 1st term of opening; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2489929.stm

  All of these students however, had broken clear rules, in spite of clear sanctions. There would have been hell on if we had excluded anyone who was innocent of breaking any clear rules.

  In the end we rapidly exceeded our maximum number of exclusions and had to revise the zero tolerance policy But draconian or liberal, the law is decided, laid down and followed, till somebody else changes it. Nobody in their right mind would exclude an innocent kid for being attacked.

  I think you hit the nail on the head regarding God sex, ethics and politics, though. You said;

  “Regardless, what does a teacher’s political view have to do with how and what they teach my child? Liberal, conservative or otherwise, I had better not find you imposing your political beliefs on my child.”

  I agree with you, and I think most people would, too (including teachers). Not only a teacher’s political view, but her sexual, moral and ethical views, too.

  But you also complain that:

  “There is no religious education allowed in public schools. Religion may be discussed in social, historical or cultural context only.”

  Hang on a minute, weren’t you threatening only a moment earlier that you’d better not find me imposing my beliefs on your child?! You can’t complain about religious or political indotrination in one sentence and then bemoan its absence in the next, can you?

  No beliefs should be imposed on a student by a teacher- I see that as more of a parents’ role

  Seriously though, I don’t think there are any teachers who became teachers in order to brainwash kids to their particular sexual, ethical, political, etc persuasion. TBH, I don’t think teachers’ feature that highly among your average teenager’s aspiring role-models! But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t educate on these things.

  Are you seriously telling me there is no room for political or moral ethical or sexual debate in the US classroom? That is disastrous…

  Steve

• 24 Fawn // Aug 30, 2007 at 5:22 pm

  Clearly obsteve did not school in good old US of A!

  Calling a teacher by their last name is definitely subservient. Yet, My kids have to.
  Calling them Sir or Mam is subservient. Yet, My kids must do this too.

  I don’t think seeing my kids walk through the school in straight lines with arms folded across their chest (lest they touch someone) without peeping a word is very socializing.
  I observe this from the minute I drop my kids off to the moment the kids reach the front door. All kids 1st to 5th grade walk in this unsocial manner.

  Oh wait my kids don’t make it to the front door that way because I meet them partway so they can walk however they want! However, I watch all other kids being zombies and doing as they are told.

  If they walk too fast or don’t have arms folded the teachers in the hall yell at them and make them go back and do it correctly! The kids MUST do as the teacher says.

  In all my years as a student I had only one teacher who didn’t fit the norm and had a non structured classroom. One teacher who let us call him by his 1st name. Mr. Roberts my Humanities English teacher in 9th grade.

  One teacher in all these 35 years that I’ve lived would treat kids with respect as an equal. With me and my kids I have met only one.

  Sure I talk with teachers parent to teacher no a days and they spout all the garbage obsteve says but they still do things the way their teachers did and the way all my horrible teachers did.

  I had one black lady who yelled at her kids that “Respect WINS Respect!” I always thought really hard at her that Yeah if she gave one ounce of respect to her kids we wouldn’t be laughing behind her back.

  The teachers are always THEM. They are not us.

• 25 Fawn // Aug 30, 2007 at 5:41 pm

  My gym teacher tried to get me to be interested in him That was in Minneapolis at Anwatin. I and most of the girls who received A + did not report it. Ok, All of us girls never reported his advances. He never crossed our line I guess. Did I mention no boys in the class ever got an A even an A minus?

  And My friend Melanie was forced down on someone when the bus driver stepped off the bus. Among other incidents that happened to her. That she never reported. I tried to report the bus incident but the school staff didn’t care even if I was a victim because I saw what the boy did. The true victim (Melanie) didn’t want to admit what happened.
  Melanie feared repercussions from the students on the bus. The ones who were the kids friends and the boy himself.

  Clearly, she did not trust the teachers and faculty as friends on her level to socialize with. To tell her story.

  How many things do students decide not to report?
  When I went to Forrest High there were a number of men who would stop at the side of the road and flash me. Men around jacksonville seem to pray on kids at buses and near schools. These don’t always get reported. but plenty have in this town at least.
  I never reported it because I thought it was too funny and laughed at the guy.

  But, If i had been home schooled I would not have been out at &AM being flashed! I could have slept in!!! Slept in!!!

• 26 Fawn // Aug 30, 2007 at 6:31 pm

  Obsteve has held my interest to this Blog.
  I have read a number of homeschooling sites. Bookmarked them but never returned.

  Heck, I’m reading and another problem comes to mind. My child was taught one form of print last year but this year he is being taught a different print. We are not talking print to cursive but the many styles to print letters. All within the same school just different teachers demanding different writing.
  So, My son has penmanship being taught all over to him so he can learn this style!

  And can someone tell me why schools in the US get more money if the student is the child of a federal employ? I know our sons bring this school extra money because their father works on government property. Does that make sense?

  As for the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND? My oldest get extra help because he has been diagnosed with something by the school. Extra help!

  My second son? He gets squat! Nothing! But, Who gets left behind now? The kids who don’t get the extra time because they should be intelligent enough to just get it. Often my oldest comes home with treats (incentives like candy and stickers) but my second son is left out and not given the same encouragement to learn.
  Plus, While visiting my childs Title 1 school last year I found it is cool and a norm to be in a special Ed class. HUH! (That includes all the non english speaking kids! ESOL kids)
  It made me feel bad for Kellin. In this case he is too smart for his own good. And I want my kids in special ed so they get more help and benefits!
  But, I don’t think that should be what parents should desire. Should it?
  It’s like wishing to be poor so the state will pay for housing and food. So, I could live off food stamps.

• 27 Michelle // Aug 30, 2007 at 9:30 pm

  Steve,

  Yes, we were quite astonished by the situation as well and even more so when the boy’s mother was refused a meeting with the principal over the matter.

  I wasn’t bemoaning the lack of religious instruction in the classroom, I was addressing your reference to creationism being taught in RE. In the US, it is simply against the law to offer any sort of religious instruction in a public school.

  Disastrous is a very good word for US public school systems.

• 28 obsteve // Sep 1, 2007 at 3:33 pm

  Hi Fawn,

  My students call me My Woods or Sir. My Sixth formers Sometimes call me by my first name, or I get ‘Woodsy’. Neither bothers me. But I think it acts as an indicator of formality rather than subservience- like the French use ‘Vous’ and ‘Tu’. Do your own kids call you by your first name, or do they call you Mam?

  The school I work at now, the children stand when the headteacher walks in, but I think that speaks more of the tradition of the school than anything else- she is an extremely approachable and charismatic woman, who has developed an otherwise informal (and loving) relationship with the students. She wows them with her magic tricks, tales of her adventures (parachute jumping, etc) and other incredible things. But I suppose, on just the evidence of standing up when she entered the room, you could say she was demanding subservience- but then again you didn’t see her receive a (standing) ovation when she walked in one day, having dyed her hair blue for charity.

  Students walking silently through the school in straight lines with arms folded across their chest is a pretty horrific image, but is it a true reflection of your average US school? There is a system in our local primary school after break where the first bell is rung, and the children stand still like statues. The bell rings a second time, and they walk silently into class line.

  It amazed me when I first saw it, and I suppose you could read into it all the subservience and brainwashing you wish, but ultimately it is about safety, and signalling the restart of the session. A moment earlier, and all the children were playing the normal games that children at school play together.

  You say,

  “One teacher in all these 35 years that I’ve lived would treat kids with respect as an equal. With me and my kids I have met only one.”

  Well all I can say to that is, for some bizarre reason, teachers in the US must have lost the notion that all people are created equal (if they ever had that notion to begin). Perhaps they weren’t taught it at school; perhaps US teachers are genetically predisposed to look down on their zombified charges; perhaps, through bitter experience, they have come to hate and patronise children.

  Whatever the case, you surely are unfortunate to have such a callous, lecherous, untrustworthy, er… garbage spouting bunch in charge of your future generations. It’s a miracle that anybody (who can afford not to) actually sends their kids to state school in America!

  Steve

• 29 obsteve // Sep 1, 2007 at 3:45 pm

  Hi Fawn,

  You say,

  “My oldest get extra help because he has been diagnosed with something by the school. Extra help! My second son? He gets squat! Nothing! But, Who gets left behind now?”

  I’m not sure what you’re saying here- are you saying your oldest son shouldn’t get extra support on account of his diagnosis?

  You say,

  “Plus, While visiting my childs Title 1 school last year I found it is cool and a norm to be in a special Ed class. HUH! (That includes all the non english speaking kids! ESOL kids)”

  With regards to Special Ed classes, I think it is “cool and a norm” to be in them. If a child needs extra help with reading or writing, over and above what a classroom teacher can give, then why should they not receive extra help?

  If you want extra help for everyone you are going to have to pay more taxes to provide more teachers, something which isn’t too popular with voters.

  And, incidantally, some of the hardest working and most caring teachers I know are in Special Ed- it isn’t exactly a stroll in the park of a job, and they aren’t in it for the money either.

  Steve

• 30 Fawn // Sep 1, 2007 at 10:14 pm

  Steve,
  My kids tend to call me Mom. Not because that is required but because they are used to it. I’ve let them call me Fawn. It doesn’t bug me. However, Ma, Ma, Ma or Da, Da, Da, is baby babble that seems to be easiest to learn. So, Why do they call me mom? I don’t think it is formality or whatever reason. They have a choice to choose.
  I believe that most students called Mr. George Roberts by Mr. Roberts. It is what we learned to call teachers. However, He gave us the choice. That made it clear it was formality and not a demand. I think we all respected him more for it. (great English Teacher and he let us swear in our writing if we thought it appropriate)

  My 2nd son has taken to calling his Dad , sir and me, Mam! EEEK! We have told him NOT to call us such horrible things. He insists because his teachers scold him if he does not call them that. Mostly, I just cringe when he calls Mam but I let him know I need not be called THAT.

  One of the teachers sang The National Anthem at the Jaguar Football game here on Thursday night. She received applause too. It doesn’t mean the kids trust her as they do a friend. Mostly, The students here are monkey see and Monkey do. No one ever explains that they have a choice to opt out of the Pledge of Allegiance. They do teach the kids to memorize it and they tell everyone to stand. Kids are not made aware of choice.
  If we taught them right off about choice then perhaps it wouldn’t be subservient but free will.

  Considering, I am a military wife and have moved around I can say that walking silently arms folded through halls is a common U.S. practice at least through 5th grade. I have not been in a school that has older grades for some time. When, i was in school, I had less than 5 minutes between class to get to my next room. That even meant deciding my books for class should just stay in their locker or carry armfuls.

• 31 Fawn // Sep 1, 2007 at 10:23 pm

  Steve,
  The only time I think my sons were to likely get more freedom was with Art and music class. As of Friday, They still have not had music or art. It seems the district wide (or maybe state wide) has introduced new ways to teaching math and requiring more physical activity (gym class).
  So, In the name of safety and education more freedoms are taken away. The Principal at Parent?teacher night stressed how important that students need to be in their seats on time and ready to learn!!! That more is being handed down to them that THEY must teach.
  So, what do the kis do before class in the morning?
  I walk them to school. We sometimes get their too early. I am required by my oldest to sit in the front hall with them until it is closer to time.
  Why? Because my son hates sitting in the hall quietly reading a book.

• 32 Fawn // Sep 1, 2007 at 10:43 pm

  They are not allowed in the classroom. They sit on the floor and are rewarded by teachers that go up and down the hall and give rewards for “good ” quiet readers.
  THough at least most schools will allow the child in the classroom to sit quietly at their desk. I guess Florida is odd.

  I’m saying my oldest does get help. My second son has not been labeled. I don’t want him to be.
  In U.S. schools I think that I could get anyone labeled. My 1st son had lousy teachers in Maryland and needed extra. In Florida, I insisted on testing and suggested what family history problems he might have. I truly believe I helped sway them.

  The teachers here they have compassion and love for their students. They do. They want to help.
  I think most of them fail to see how kids do read into all the safety measures as subservience and brainwashing.

  The way I saw it when I was in Elementary School in North Minnesota was just as Pink Floyd expressed, “just another brick in the wall” Even I in grade school got the message and nodded my head.

• 33 Fawn // Sep 1, 2007 at 11:20 pm

  Why send your child to public school?

  Well, Most people can not afford not to! Both parents work in most families. A big portion don’t even realize it is an option. (Though I run into more and more families turning to home school.)

  My kids get free breakfast. The county is nice enough to feed kids food. (though mostly awful food)

  I expected my kids to be having music and art class. I’m hoping this week is the week they finally do??? Though limited. Some exposure is better than none. At this rate, I’m thinking I could teach them music and art better.

  That brings me to I like the teachers. They are not bad. They are doing their job. They are following government rules. I found out they are fined if they are not doing their jobs good enough. They have to get students to pass. If kids don’t pass the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test the school faces getting a lower grade and less money. The teachers face fines. The Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test is what the kids must know. The teacher teaches around this. It’s their job.
  I think they try to make it fun. I think they do the best they can.
  Unfortunately, They have requirements they must fill.

  Who fails the kids? Most parents. They expect the school to raise their kids.

  I send my kids off to public school. I am a very involved parent in the lives of my kids.
  This last week I won 2 fights with the school.
  One being that they wanted me to send in bottled water for my child daily because they were not letting the kids use the water fountain. I told them nice try but I would be getting a doctor note because my son had already had an ER visit for dehydration problems.

  The second reason is because they want me to sign some daily grade. If I do not it will mark down his citizenship grade a notch.
  I told them to stuff it. I wanted my child to receive his citizenship grade on his own merits not based on my darn signature.
  The teacher told me it was school “policy” and she would be having to give him a lower grade if I didn’t sign.

  Well, the Principal as of Friday told me that it would be worked out. He hinted it is being worked out on my terms. However, they are still working on it.

  The nice thing about the whole incident is I showed my son that writing and complaining can work. If you don’t like the way the system is and don’t agree with it then speak-up.

  I think this was very quick results that he could see 1st hand.

  I doubt he would see this as a home schooler.

  My son knows where I stand. That I think he should get a good grade on his own merits. That I think the written word is mighty. Things are worth sticking it out for.

  I just hope the Principal is right and sways all of the school or whomever implemented a stupid policy to my side.
  Otherwise, Instead of writing here I need to start making an outline of key points of why I believe the way I do.
  I’ll need to write the newspapers and everyone I can to get people behind my cause.

  Most of the parents I talk to shrug. Big deal that they must sign their kids work daily.
  I’m like it is YOUR child’s work not YOURS let them take responsibility. But, Even those who agree are not moved to action.

  It makes me think Americans don’t care about a lot of things.

• 34 Michelle // Sep 2, 2007 at 9:39 pm

  I love that book. I’m a public school teacher, and I agree with everything you’re saying. Some of us can be a bit subversive… I’m also a fan of Steve Olsen. I like your writing as well.

• 35 Edmund Snyder // Sep 2, 2007 at 10:15 pm

  Michelle,

  I like subversives. Good to know there are at least a few teaching in our schools.

• 36 obsteve // Sep 3, 2007 at 2:55 pm

  Hi Michelle,

  My dad gave me this book when I was going into the teaching profession:
  Teaching Subversive Activity

  It may be a bit dated now, but it still carries a punch. I think you might enjoy it.

  I am wholly of the persuasion that teachers (even US ones) tend to enjoy teaching young people to have an open mind, and thrive on endowing students with the skills of enquiry, rather than insisting they sit passively receiving false information, as has been suggested here.

  It was in the 50’s that Bloom (an American) devised his taxonomy of questions. Passively receiving information is the lowest ranking in Bloom’s taxonomy:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_of_Educational_Objectives

  http://www.officeport.com/edu/bloomq.htm

  You homeschoolers might find it useful

• 37 obsteve // Sep 3, 2007 at 3:00 pm

  Hi Fawn,

  Sounds like you’ve had a pretty raw deal in your dealings with the education system both as a child and as a mother.

  Perhaps I am guilty of underestimating your (collective your) truthfulness when describing some of the grimmer aspects of state education in the states. My apologies for having done so.

  But please continue to hold faith in the general goodness of humanity (which ought to include at least some teachers, by the law of averages) and in the milk of human kindness which drives teachers to dedicate their lives to children, in a difficult job with little thanks. I personally cannot think what would drive a special ed teacher, for example, to commit his life to some of the most needy children in our society- other than love and genuine concern for child welfare.

  By law, UK teachers do not have to work long extra-curricular hours, nor spend their own holiday time with children, yet an overwhelming majority choose to do so- unpaid. Why would this be? Do American teachers spend unpaid time with their wards?

  Sounds to me like your kids have a great ‘Mom’, and someone who will fight endlessly on their behalf. But I don’t think it is the teachers you are fighting against, in the “us and them” divide you mentioned in a previous post.

  If, as you say, the US state system is this dim, archaic hell, then I don’t expect the teachers like it much either- especially if, as Michelle suggested earlier, “the majority of teachers are political liberals”.

  Steve

• 38 Edmund Snyder // Sep 3, 2007 at 3:21 pm

  …then I don’t expect the teachers like it much either…

  Steve,

  That is very true. The unfortunate thing about it is that the teachers who don’t like it are the top echelon teachers–the ones who care about their charges the most, the ones who joined the profession for the right reasons. Sadly, as they become more frustrated and fed up, they leave the profession completely or go to work for private schools.

  For years this has been happening which has drained our US schools of the best teachers and left the worst. Fortunately, there are a few who have persevered and remain but they generally fight a losing battle. Mostly it’s one they can’t win because the administrations and boards are politicized and money-driven, and the people (who are really in charge) are apathetic.

  One can still receive a quality education even at some of the worst US public schools, but it requires a lot of great parenting and what amounts to home schooling in the evenings, weekends, and summers (like that of Fawn) to overcome the negative effects of our public schools. The few remaining great teachers also have a huge impact–if your child is lucky enough to have one of them. As I’ve stated before, I’ll never try to take any of the credit away from those teachers.

  As a matter of fact, the few that I had are counted among my greatest heroes: Mr. John Jenkins, Ms. Judy Schultz, Mr. McGivern, Mr. Jasperson, and Mr. Daryl Johnson. The sad thing is that for 12 years of public education, I can only name 5 teachers that I would consider to be great. Many students aren’t even that fortunate.

• 39 Fawn // Sep 3, 2007 at 6:39 pm

  Steve,
  No the teachers don’t seem to like it much either.
  On my myspace friends I have a music teacher from my kids school. I had ventured to his Mother’s website to find she is also a school teacher. I had been reading her blog because it gave me the idea what the system does to teachers.

  I didn’t know about teacher fines until reading her myspace. Unfortunately, She went to friends only and I have no access to her school rants. It did help provide me with insight for a time though.

  Now, the music teacher is still young and school is only a back-up job. His real work is playing at night at clubs. Last year, He would get to school in the mornings just as the bell for class would ring and sometimes after.
  On the time school let out I usually saw him zipping away 15 minutes after school let out.
  He is a great teacher when he is there. He is great with the kids as I’ve seen him signing in the hall. However, He isn’t one to take time for the kids.
  It is his way to make ends meet in his life.

  Now, I know a school teacher that gets to school very early. Her son and mine were best friends last year. This lady is early to school and one of the last teachers to leave. She comes from Italy. I see her leave the school somewhere between 6 and 7 PM. Who suffers the most for her dedication? Her son. He is allowed to be with her while she is still at work after school.

  Teachers get a flat salary. The music teacher didn’t even teach music the 1st week. The music, art, and gym teachers are used as couriers within the school a lot of the time. Flat salary for those dedicated and those not so dedicated.

  My kids go to a great school as far as the teachers go I think. There are some Montessori Public schools that I could try to get the kids into. I just know the teachers at this school. Montessori is a hands on school but the class size is terrible. There are waiting lists for the better public schools in the city. I think I’d rather be a dedicated parent and work with these teachers good and bad than take my chances with a so called good school.

  I’m just stuck getting angry at the school policies.

  I’m minutes from the school to come to my kids rescue if need be and they know it.

  I learned from a great Mom.

  Oh and from watching a tv show on “Hot for Student” on E; I become aware that a lot of American’s are suspicious of a teacher if they become to active in the child’s life.
  Either they are blamed for not being compassionate or that they are interested for the wrong reasons.

  A teacher can’t win.

  Fawn

• 40 Fawn // Sep 3, 2007 at 6:53 pm

  Ed,

  While you meet a few great teachers it is only one bead that can ruin a life.

  My oldest had one such teacher at a school in Maryland. She terrorized him so much I wish I could go back up there and try to get her fired.
  She has no right teaching preschoolers. The public preschool teacher did so bad my son is afraid to read.

  The teachers he has had since have had to overcome his fears. Fears of not “knowing what the words are”. Makes me wonder what 3/4 year old knows how to read many words? What preschooler might comprehend a story fully. But After working through years with Merlin and he finally tells me about preschool. It makes me mad he didn’t know to tell on that teacher!

  So, Is the good ones worth the one bad one?

  I just hope that I have worked with both my sons enough that they know that I need to be told if any teacher makes them uncomfortable. I don’t want them uncomfortable with learning.

  My son can read very big words and reads pretty good. Yet, His experience leaves him telling me he thinks a book looks to big (scary) and he resorts to reading baby board books. Plus, Books with only about a sentence or two per page.

  It can only take one bad to cripple a life.

  At least Merlin is young enough I think he will overcome it.

• 41 Fawn // Sep 4, 2007 at 1:20 pm

  reason in the U.S. not to home school.
  Your child is less likely to get labeled with ADD or ADHD.

  http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20070904/hl_hsn/9ofuskidshaveadhd;_ylt=AiGRpoS2Yncl7JJREc48MPKs0NUE

  Or any other disorder.

  Oh and Friends of mine stationed in Japan could not take their son over seas because Japan wouldn’t allow him since he is diagnosed with ADD.

  THey probably wouldn’t let Merlin in with Asperger’s but only Merlin’s school has had their professionals diagnose him. They would like me to have him taken to his own doctor but I don’t want anything filed in his medical record.

• 42 obsteve // Sep 4, 2007 at 2:54 pm

  Hi Fawn,

  It is only in recent years that Autism, ADHD and other barriers to learning have become more widely understood and appreciated.

  I think that our increased understanding has come about primarily from the state education system, with Teachers, Educational Psychologists and other professionals in the field dedicating their lives (and governments dedicating tax funds) to salient research and resources.

  Also happily, these people continue to be drawn into education and child care in much the same way a a nurse is drawn into nursing or a police to policing- not by the money.

  I can’t remember which smartalec once had the timerity to suggest that ‘those who can’t, teach’. To be honest I don’t care, but I doubt he knew anything about teaching, or that he would last an hour in a special ed class.

  Teaching is a calling- art and skill and knowledge and love, combined with many other qualities.

• 43 obsteve // Sep 4, 2007 at 3:20 pm

  Hi Ed,

  You say,

  “Fortunately, there are a few who have persevered and remain [in teaching] but they generally fight a losing battle.”

  I thought you might like to check this site out to help rectify your overly negative (and unsubstantiated) perception

  http://www.ratemyteachers.com

  I hope it goes some way towards realigning your view of schools in the US with reality.

  On this site, students get a chance to rate their teachers. Once again, it isn’t all rosy perfect, but it is a great deal more positive than you have been making out.

  You say,

  “One can still receive a quality education even at some of the worst US public schools, but it requires a lot of great parenting and what amounts to home schooling in the evenings, weekends, and summers (like that of Fawn) to overcome the negative effects of our public schools.”

  Once again I have to strongly disagree. I have worked in some extremely deprived areas, and I can tell you that with kids whose parents don’t give a hoot; where the children are abused and neglected; where opportunities are few and far between- TEACHERS WORK HARDER!

  In the UK we have a ’superteacher’ system, for specially trained teachers who wish to earn management money while staying in the classroom. Is there no similar thing in the US?

• 44 Fawn // Sep 4, 2007 at 9:14 pm

  I don’t have much of a response. I do know that even though Merlin is diagnosed by the school with Asperger’s it always take me telling them that he has the problem. Plus, The teachers have no clue what it means.
  I had one teacher say, “Oh so that is what Merlin has.”

  It’s like if they are your student wouldn’t you glance through their record?

  Of course, I liked a lot of the teachers when I grew up in Minnesota. Though the horrible gym teacher was at Anwatin. However, the teachers at least had students who gave a crap.
  In Florida, My American History teacher gave a geography test over and over because a huge portion of the students could not label the state above Florida!
  My World History teacher walked out of the room during tests! Even the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test. Yes, i cheated too. I used to hate history. (Now, i watch the history channel. lol)
  One of my English teachers had a girl step out into the hall way and when the student pushed he the teacher almost had the automatic reaction of punching the girl. Then, The girl kept pushing this female teacher and yelling at the teacher to go ahead and punch her so she wouldn’t be e teacher. The student kept yelling at the teacher that she’d be out a job if she hit her.

  The teachers do put up with enough and then some. I don’t know how that teacher was able to keep her composure.

  But, I don’t think I could have cheated on history at home. I doubt I’d have to witness a fight or be hit on by a school teacher if I was home schooled. Plus, i never would have grown up with all those horrible kids in Two Harbors, MN. If I had been home schooled I would not have been beat up in Kindergarten (in the classroom) by a 4th grader every morning! The school not doing anything about it. However, My older brother started escorting me to my kindergarten class.
  If I had been home schooled I would not have a permanent tattoo from a large pencil on my butt from getting stabbed by a male student. Plus, The teacher led me down to the principal office by the ear as if it was my fault!

  My list of why I should have been home schooled could go on forever.

  But, Not one of those stories would ever be found on a rate my teacher.
  Instead, I’m more likely to mention Mrs. Sather from Anwatin (in Minneapolis) whom looked the other way when I (an A student) skipped her class. If I rate a teacher it wouldn’t be to moan over the bad ones but to thank god for the few good ones.

  Yes, I was stabbed in the butt with a pencil HOW embarrassing to this day.

  I felt like the ugly duckling throughout school. If I had been homeschooled I wouldn’t have had all those kids picking on me and the teachers who could do nothing about it.

  Although, I’m sure the teacher who took me out of class in 1st grade to wash the smell of smoke off of me interrupted my learning and made me feel worse about myself. Made me feel unclean.

  Today I look back and I suddenly realize She likely thought she was doing me a favor by taking me to the gym showers DAILY to clean me of the stench. …whatever stench that was….. But, To me it just gave kids more ammunition. Plus, It was not very educational and I missed out on lessons I was suppose to be learning and I was attending school for.

  My beliefs in teachers is I believe they think they are doing a good job and making right choices.
  But are they?

  Is public school sometimes a hinder?

• 45 Michelle // Sep 5, 2007 at 11:40 am

  What students think of their teachers and what parents think of the teachers are quite often two different things. I’d think students have a different set of criteria.

  Michelle W.

• 46 obsteve // Sep 5, 2007 at 2:13 pm

  Hi Michelle,

  You’re preaching to the converted- I know that children have a different set of criteria for what makes a good teacher from that of parents, and that the school will have a different set from the children. However, the criteria are not mutually exclusive- a charismatic teacher who can switch a child on to her subject is appreciated by parents and school alike. A teacher who can make a leaning fun gets good grades as a result; everyone’s a winner.

  Honestly, browse the site a little; take a look at the wall of fame-

  http://www.ratemyteachers.com/showPregenerated.php?page=HallOfFame

  Steve

• 47 Fawn // Sep 5, 2007 at 4:30 pm

  Michelle,

  Yeah, I found my Mom thought certain teachers were great. Like she would find some attractive. (this was when she had become single.)
  Then, I’d have to let her know how lousy they were at doing their job.

  My Mom and I didn’t agree on teachers because she didn’t “know” them.
  I had the worst Trigonometry teacher in High School for awhile. It took 3 months before parents started listening to their kids before he got removed. He just didn’t explain it in a manner we understood. INEFFECTUAL So, Yeah parents don’t understand a teacher the way the child does. It is nice when parents finally listen.

  However, Even when the parent listens it doesn’t mean the school will. The school told my Mom that they couldn’t just move her child just because I didn’t like the teacher. Sometimes, It is nice when other parents get concerned about why their A student is failing. But, It should not take 3 months.

  I can say about my kids teachers. They are just elementary students. We both seem to love them. Though my kids have found that they can lie and be wrong.

  Ok, actually, I know Mr. Fisher was not lying. He was just joking about what the FCAT meant. He told my son it was “torturing cats”. That was last year and he just told me during parent/teacher night. I had to keep trying to explain to Merlin that the FCAT was just a test for the higher grades. In turn Merlin thinks his teacher is wrong and……
  I just laugh and think that teachers really need to think before they say something even in jest.

  I don’t know how the teachers are at effectively teaching but when Merlin’s teachers make a mistake I hear about it.

  I do have a different view than they do. I’m more forgiving.

• 48 Fawn // Sep 5, 2007 at 4:52 pm

  Steve,

  I browsed the site.
  I was not impressed. Mostly because all the schools I looked up no one was rating the teacher.

  Plus, We can’t rate the teacher on the site by looks and I know that to my 2 boys looks is a big help! My kids go to a school where I have to be at least 10 years senior to most of the teachers. These ladies are young, hot and stylish. As a Mom of 2 boys I know it has helped my kids engage actively in learning. Heck, If Merlin’s speach teacher at age 3 had not been so pretty I don’t think it would have drawn him out of the shell he was in.

  I looked at the items you can’t say to rate the teacher so as a prior student if I can’t bad mouth my teacher why would I just constructively say anything.

  Heck, Yeah I want a rate me site that I can say that my 7th grade teacher was so good at science teaching cause he was drop dead gorgeous! I want to. I want to tell them that Mr. Stubbs was a superb teacher casue he let you cheat on your tests and finals. However, He was boring!

  THere were rules on the rate me sight of what you can and can not write. So, Wouldn’t it just be nicer to go to myspace and log in my info into my blog and chat with my friends about teachers.

  The rate my teachers site might be good for parents who are moving. But, I bet it isn’t great.

  The school my kids go to was an A+ school in Duval county for 3 years in a row. Then last year they became a B school!
  B school and the teachers aren’t any different!

  I wrote the Principal a letter of why I thought it was still an A school to me and my kids.

  I’m not sure if grading a school is accurate. My grade one day might be different from the grade I would give it a month from now.

  Plus, I see that some schools on the rate my school site are private schools. Some private schools are as good as home schooled.

  I just don’t want to rely on a rate my school site. (Mostly because of the rules of what is approved of. )

  fawn

• 49 obsteve // Sep 6, 2007 at 1:45 pm

  (Incidentally, I have just learnt that the author of the above book conducted a survey of… wait for it… 12 US history textbooks, before publishing his authoritative pamphlet on the subject! 12 books? For shame, where is his academic pride!? I’m sure there are a few more in contemporary use than that! My 15 year old exam group reads more books than th